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	<title>Comments on: We’re not in a cult!!! … are we?</title>
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	<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/</link>
	<description>A sword wrathfully thrust into the zombie heart.</description>
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		<title>By: Dimitri</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-40770</link>
		<dc:creator>Dimitri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 13:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-40770</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that many are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. By which I mean: There are several ways to look at the &quot;CrossFit phenomenon&quot;, and not all of them need produce frothing invective. Sure, if one chooses to focus on the unimpressive physique of its founder, the cultish behavior of its more rabid adherents, and the know-it-all pronouncements of its &quot;experts&quot;, then indignation and even rage are understandable attitudes.

But what if we take a more chilled, eclectic approach - what&#039;s wrong with developing workouts based on a strength &amp; conditioning template that uses functional movements (you know, push / pull / squat / hinge / loaded carry), employing exercises from Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting, and Gymnastics ? 

Is it too much to ask to ignore the hype, ignore the fatso coach, ignore the militant cultists, but take whatever makes sense and adapt / adopt ?


For the record - I am 45 year-old amateur athlete, and I find CrossFit to be a refreshing return to forgotten fitness methods. And I emphasize &quot;forgotten&quot; - there is nothing new here. I see the cultish elements, I see the shortcomings of certain individuals, but as an independent individual able to think critically, I am able to extract from CrossFit that which makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that many are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. By which I mean: There are several ways to look at the &#8220;CrossFit phenomenon&#8221;, and not all of them need produce frothing invective. Sure, if one chooses to focus on the unimpressive physique of its founder, the cultish behavior of its more rabid adherents, and the know-it-all pronouncements of its &#8220;experts&#8221;, then indignation and even rage are understandable attitudes.</p>
<p>But what if we take a more chilled, eclectic approach &#8211; what&#8217;s wrong with developing workouts based on a strength &amp; conditioning template that uses functional movements (you know, push / pull / squat / hinge / loaded carry), employing exercises from Olympic Weightlifting, Powerlifting, and Gymnastics ? </p>
<p>Is it too much to ask to ignore the hype, ignore the fatso coach, ignore the militant cultists, but take whatever makes sense and adapt / adopt ?</p>
<p>For the record &#8211; I am 45 year-old amateur athlete, and I find CrossFit to be a refreshing return to forgotten fitness methods. And I emphasize &#8220;forgotten&#8221; &#8211; there is nothing new here. I see the cultish elements, I see the shortcomings of certain individuals, but as an independent individual able to think critically, I am able to extract from CrossFit that which makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: RickJames</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-3561</link>
		<dc:creator>RickJames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 23:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-3561</guid>
		<description>Also im now living in the country and have fresh eggs from free range chickens and eat fresh stuff from my garden and whatnot. Im 180#s and feel faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also im now living in the country and have fresh eggs from free range chickens and eat fresh stuff from my garden and whatnot. Im 180#s and feel faster.</p>
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		<title>By: RickJames</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-3560</link>
		<dc:creator>RickJames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 23:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-3560</guid>
		<description>I do Paleo Ish diet, im also young as hell @ 23 and happy with where I am physically, When I was on the zone I was 205 and pretty strong, but it took over my day. I was constantly worried about food. Now I eat 2 or 3 meals a day and relax on eating whatever I feel like. If I dont feel like cooking and want McDonalds ill fuckin eat it. Im not a professional athlete, once someone is willing to pay me to lift or whatever then I will eat like one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do Paleo Ish diet, im also young as hell @ 23 and happy with where I am physically, When I was on the zone I was 205 and pretty strong, but it took over my day. I was constantly worried about food. Now I eat 2 or 3 meals a day and relax on eating whatever I feel like. If I dont feel like cooking and want McDonalds ill fuckin eat it. Im not a professional athlete, once someone is willing to pay me to lift or whatever then I will eat like one.</p>
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		<title>By: RickJames</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-3559</link>
		<dc:creator>RickJames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 23:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-3559</guid>
		<description>I concur here. I use to do the curls for girls before I started crossfit and freakin loved it. I also trained/helped some of my fellow soldiers at that time to. I run an affiliate out of my garage on the side as I go to college because I enjoy fitness and love to share MY knowledge. I tell people all the time, &quot;this is what I do, this is how I stay in shape and train to do what I like/want to accomplish in life.&quot; I know full well that I know how much I know and do not know about all things fitness, and let my clients know, hey this is what I know, you find something better, tell me and we&#039;ll look at it. If its freakin awesome well god damnit id include it or change my view. Its sad that the majority of these people in crossfit are zealots or just doing it to make money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur here. I use to do the curls for girls before I started crossfit and freakin loved it. I also trained/helped some of my fellow soldiers at that time to. I run an affiliate out of my garage on the side as I go to college because I enjoy fitness and love to share MY knowledge. I tell people all the time, &#8220;this is what I do, this is how I stay in shape and train to do what I like/want to accomplish in life.&#8221; I know full well that I know how much I know and do not know about all things fitness, and let my clients know, hey this is what I know, you find something better, tell me and we&#8217;ll look at it. If its freakin awesome well god damnit id include it or change my view. Its sad that the majority of these people in crossfit are zealots or just doing it to make money.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-1692</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 May 2010 15:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-1692</guid>
		<description>Parker,
I recall your posts on the board and I don&#039;t think that anyone will argue that you were polite - except perhaps that politeness goes out the window with persistent insistence.  However, you would be foolish to deny that the comments section of the WOD was a poor place to discuss the matter.  The purpose of that section of the site is to archive results of a WOD so that it can be referenced at a later time.  If you are being censored, its because of your misuse.

Longevity in fitness is really quite an elusive thing.  If you run marathons, you will have bad knees when you get older.  You don&#039;t see people that coach boxing in a boxing match, frequently because they were injured at some point in their career - or because the goals that they were setting out to meet in their training faded away with time.  

You keep on pointing to Glassman as the poster child for doing CrossFit long term and using this one statistical outlier as the basis of your entire argument.  I disagree with your rationale.  Glassman is what - 53 years old?  You can&#039;t exactly expect him to be the worlds pinnacle of fitness - despite the success of his program.  

The big problem with your rationale is that it takes almost no factors into consideration except that Glassman has been practicing CrossFit principles for longer than anyone else.  

Let&#039;s take a track athlete for instance.  Most people who compete in the same event on a high school track team are going to participate in roughly the same training regimen.  However, you are going to have some athletes that are more successful than others.  Your success in fitness is not 100% determined by the training regimen you follow.  There are other considerations to factor in:
1) Genetics
2) How frequently does the athlete follow the program?
3) To what intensity does the athlete train?

In the Army, we use the FITT approach to fitness: Frequency, Intensity, Type, Time.  Each of these 4 factors are components of the end result.  It&#039;s not as simple as &quot;Who has been in the Army the longest?&quot; to determine the most fit person in the room - as you will likely find that the two questions produce very different answers.

And also, to what standard do you judge fitness? Are you calling Glassman unfit based on comparison to other (younger) CrossFit athletes?  Are you comparing him to olympians?  Average people?  Average people his age?  You have not quantified what you consider to be fit and neither have you quantified his level of fitness.  You have simply made claims that he is unfit.

Beyond that, I have been to a CrossFit gym twice - once to check it out and again to actually work out.  While speaking with the owner of the gym, we talked about how he is drastically fallen out of shape since starting the gym - because it is much harder to stay on a strict regimen when you are running a business.  I think this pertains to Glassman on much larger scale.  So back to my factors of fitness - 
I think we can agree that his age plays a factor into the role his genetics play.  Sure, he may have been a great athlete at one point in time - but people deteriorate as they age - so his fitness is going to deteriorate with age.
I think we can also agree that being a trainer does not necessarily mean you are fit.  In fact, I think it should be easy for a trainer to make their students more fit than they themselves are.  Half of the reason for this is competition.  Glassman no longer competes.  Competition is one of the elements of any elite athlete - it makes you better.
This leads me into my next factor - intensity, which has undoubtedly decreased for Glassman as he is no longer competing which is where the most intense physical activity occurs.

Now, personally I am not an avid CrossFitter.  I do follow the WOD from time to time and I do recommend elements of the fitness technique to anyone who is trying to improve their fitness - it is built on sound principles, combining the the best principles of every successful training regimen.  I myself like to think of CrossFit.com as kind of a Fight Club organization.  It&#039;s interesting that so many people will simply &quot;do as told&quot; on such a large scale.  Kind of interesting to see the discipline in my opinon - and really not scary like some other cults such as the Church (the world&#039;s religious organizations are the largest of the slave nations) as the goal is basically of self improvement.

Anyway, I&#039;m wandering now - I guess I would like to see you clean up your argument before continuing:
To what degree is Glassman &quot;unfit&quot;?
How exactly is his state of unfit relevant.

Rather than posting a largely irrelevant post, please organize your argument in such a manner that someone can intelligently respond - I&#039;d be happy to do so as a more or less neutral party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parker,<br />
I recall your posts on the board and I don&#8217;t think that anyone will argue that you were polite &#8211; except perhaps that politeness goes out the window with persistent insistence.  However, you would be foolish to deny that the comments section of the WOD was a poor place to discuss the matter.  The purpose of that section of the site is to archive results of a WOD so that it can be referenced at a later time.  If you are being censored, its because of your misuse.</p>
<p>Longevity in fitness is really quite an elusive thing.  If you run marathons, you will have bad knees when you get older.  You don&#8217;t see people that coach boxing in a boxing match, frequently because they were injured at some point in their career &#8211; or because the goals that they were setting out to meet in their training faded away with time.  </p>
<p>You keep on pointing to Glassman as the poster child for doing CrossFit long term and using this one statistical outlier as the basis of your entire argument.  I disagree with your rationale.  Glassman is what &#8211; 53 years old?  You can&#8217;t exactly expect him to be the worlds pinnacle of fitness &#8211; despite the success of his program.  </p>
<p>The big problem with your rationale is that it takes almost no factors into consideration except that Glassman has been practicing CrossFit principles for longer than anyone else.  </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take a track athlete for instance.  Most people who compete in the same event on a high school track team are going to participate in roughly the same training regimen.  However, you are going to have some athletes that are more successful than others.  Your success in fitness is not 100% determined by the training regimen you follow.  There are other considerations to factor in:<br />
1) Genetics<br />
2) How frequently does the athlete follow the program?<br />
3) To what intensity does the athlete train?</p>
<p>In the Army, we use the FITT approach to fitness: Frequency, Intensity, Type, Time.  Each of these 4 factors are components of the end result.  It&#8217;s not as simple as &#8220;Who has been in the Army the longest?&#8221; to determine the most fit person in the room &#8211; as you will likely find that the two questions produce very different answers.</p>
<p>And also, to what standard do you judge fitness? Are you calling Glassman unfit based on comparison to other (younger) CrossFit athletes?  Are you comparing him to olympians?  Average people?  Average people his age?  You have not quantified what you consider to be fit and neither have you quantified his level of fitness.  You have simply made claims that he is unfit.</p>
<p>Beyond that, I have been to a CrossFit gym twice &#8211; once to check it out and again to actually work out.  While speaking with the owner of the gym, we talked about how he is drastically fallen out of shape since starting the gym &#8211; because it is much harder to stay on a strict regimen when you are running a business.  I think this pertains to Glassman on much larger scale.  So back to my factors of fitness &#8211;<br />
I think we can agree that his age plays a factor into the role his genetics play.  Sure, he may have been a great athlete at one point in time &#8211; but people deteriorate as they age &#8211; so his fitness is going to deteriorate with age.<br />
I think we can also agree that being a trainer does not necessarily mean you are fit.  In fact, I think it should be easy for a trainer to make their students more fit than they themselves are.  Half of the reason for this is competition.  Glassman no longer competes.  Competition is one of the elements of any elite athlete &#8211; it makes you better.<br />
This leads me into my next factor &#8211; intensity, which has undoubtedly decreased for Glassman as he is no longer competing which is where the most intense physical activity occurs.</p>
<p>Now, personally I am not an avid CrossFitter.  I do follow the WOD from time to time and I do recommend elements of the fitness technique to anyone who is trying to improve their fitness &#8211; it is built on sound principles, combining the the best principles of every successful training regimen.  I myself like to think of CrossFit.com as kind of a Fight Club organization.  It&#8217;s interesting that so many people will simply &#8220;do as told&#8221; on such a large scale.  Kind of interesting to see the discipline in my opinon &#8211; and really not scary like some other cults such as the Church (the world&#8217;s religious organizations are the largest of the slave nations) as the goal is basically of self improvement.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m wandering now &#8211; I guess I would like to see you clean up your argument before continuing:<br />
To what degree is Glassman &#8220;unfit&#8221;?<br />
How exactly is his state of unfit relevant.</p>
<p>Rather than posting a largely irrelevant post, please organize your argument in such a manner that someone can intelligently respond &#8211; I&#8217;d be happy to do so as a more or less neutral party.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-1468</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-1468</guid>
		<description>It isn&#039;t Greg Glassman himself that gets people bothered, it is his bullshit claims that he makes, often.

For example, he talks about infinite scalability, we see Kyle Maynard working out, No Excuses CrossFit, etc., yet Glassman apparently does not work out. A little contradictory.

Oh, Greg Glassman also said Dan John has no squat. This is Dan John we&#039;re talking about. Does Greg Glassman have ANY squat?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It isn&#8217;t Greg Glassman himself that gets people bothered, it is his bullshit claims that he makes, often.</p>
<p>For example, he talks about infinite scalability, we see Kyle Maynard working out, No Excuses CrossFit, etc., yet Glassman apparently does not work out. A little contradictory.</p>
<p>Oh, Greg Glassman also said Dan John has no squat. This is Dan John we&#8217;re talking about. Does Greg Glassman have ANY squat?</p>
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		<title>By: Thor Holt</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-1128</link>
		<dc:creator>Thor Holt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-1128</guid>
		<description>Wow, This Mr Glassman certainly gets people hot and angry...

As a Personal Trainer of 15 years who&#039;s looked into and tried many methods and paths... I feel a little sympathy for Glassman as he could be injured + demotivated or just has an eating and drink problem for all we know... we all have our own demons don&#039;t we?

As to the $1000 which seems to piss you guys off, well that&#039;s about £650 in my money and for that you would only get about fifteen 45 minute sessions with me ;-)

However, I do admit to being more than a little sad to find footage of a non adonis like Glassman, when researching Cross fit ( Because someone has challenged me to their How Fit Are You test in June)

Think I will go and start a cult of my own now... at least when people find my footage my belly ain&#039;t hanging over my belt (YET :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, This Mr Glassman certainly gets people hot and angry&#8230;</p>
<p>As a Personal Trainer of 15 years who&#8217;s looked into and tried many methods and paths&#8230; I feel a little sympathy for Glassman as he could be injured + demotivated or just has an eating and drink problem for all we know&#8230; we all have our own demons don&#8217;t we?</p>
<p>As to the $1000 which seems to piss you guys off, well that&#8217;s about £650 in my money and for that you would only get about fifteen 45 minute sessions with me <img src='http://slavenation.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>However, I do admit to being more than a little sad to find footage of a non adonis like Glassman, when researching Cross fit ( Because someone has challenged me to their How Fit Are You test in June)</p>
<p>Think I will go and start a cult of my own now&#8230; at least when people find my footage my belly ain&#8217;t hanging over my belt (YET <img src='http://slavenation.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-857</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-857</guid>
		<description>He apparently was a gymnast before precise sports record keeping was invented, because there is apparently no record of his awesome accomplishments anywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He apparently was a gymnast before precise sports record keeping was invented, because there is apparently no record of his awesome accomplishments anywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Parker</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-847</link>
		<dc:creator>Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-847</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m disappointed Nathan didn&#039;t respond to my post.  Although, I will point out that Nathan seems to be more familiar and involved with CF than he lets on.  For example, he said that the WOD comments section was for stating times only.  That may be true to an extent, but plenty of posts aren&#039;t related to the WOD, and besides my post was made on a rest day, so there goes that argument.  I wasn&#039;t misusing anything.  
Longevity isn&#039;t elusive, actually.  Although it is in high injury activities like boxing.  Longevity is elusive in CF, sure.  But if one trains intelligently, you can get all of the health benefits of sports training without any problems (like, say, getting your head bashed in by another human).  I again point to Jack LaLanne, Art DeVany.  
Again, I do not agree that it is ok for a trainer to be out of shape.  A coach, sure, but not a trainer whose purpose in life is to make people healthier.  As opposed to a coach, whose purpose in life is to make people win a particular competition-and doesnt give a damn about longevity and health.  Boxing is a good example.  
I believe fitness deteriorates with age, but the rate and speed of that deterioration can be drastically different. I think CF, because it can be so injurious, speeds up fitness deterioration via incapacitation.   There are superior programs out there, again, Art Devany, Jack LaLanne, etc.  
As far as Glassman not competing, his own words contradict that.  he said in his flaming of Josh Hillis that he was the original crossfitter, and at 49 he could still beat the majority of CF&#039;ers. Sounds like fightin words to me.  
When all is said and done, I can&#039;t convince anyone of anything, but I can attempt to show the inner contradictions of CF logic.  When you add up the outrageous price of CF, the high injury rate, the silly cult mindset, the slowing and weakening of the body as I experienced it, and Greg Glassman&#039;s awful personality and treatment of his own clients, I&#039;d recommend that people just do sprints on their own, learn the olympic lifts somewhere much cheaper, and stick with what really works long term.  
Also, meatgrinder, you said you were gonna post the emails CF&#039;ers sent you.  Post them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m disappointed Nathan didn&#8217;t respond to my post.  Although, I will point out that Nathan seems to be more familiar and involved with CF than he lets on.  For example, he said that the WOD comments section was for stating times only.  That may be true to an extent, but plenty of posts aren&#8217;t related to the WOD, and besides my post was made on a rest day, so there goes that argument.  I wasn&#8217;t misusing anything.<br />
Longevity isn&#8217;t elusive, actually.  Although it is in high injury activities like boxing.  Longevity is elusive in CF, sure.  But if one trains intelligently, you can get all of the health benefits of sports training without any problems (like, say, getting your head bashed in by another human).  I again point to Jack LaLanne, Art DeVany.<br />
Again, I do not agree that it is ok for a trainer to be out of shape.  A coach, sure, but not a trainer whose purpose in life is to make people healthier.  As opposed to a coach, whose purpose in life is to make people win a particular competition-and doesnt give a damn about longevity and health.  Boxing is a good example.<br />
I believe fitness deteriorates with age, but the rate and speed of that deterioration can be drastically different. I think CF, because it can be so injurious, speeds up fitness deterioration via incapacitation.   There are superior programs out there, again, Art Devany, Jack LaLanne, etc.<br />
As far as Glassman not competing, his own words contradict that.  he said in his flaming of Josh Hillis that he was the original crossfitter, and at 49 he could still beat the majority of CF&#8217;ers. Sounds like fightin words to me.<br />
When all is said and done, I can&#8217;t convince anyone of anything, but I can attempt to show the inner contradictions of CF logic.  When you add up the outrageous price of CF, the high injury rate, the silly cult mindset, the slowing and weakening of the body as I experienced it, and Greg Glassman&#8217;s awful personality and treatment of his own clients, I&#8217;d recommend that people just do sprints on their own, learn the olympic lifts somewhere much cheaper, and stick with what really works long term.<br />
Also, meatgrinder, you said you were gonna post the emails CF&#8217;ers sent you.  Post them!</p>
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		<title>By: buck</title>
		<link>http://slavenation.com/index.php/2009/10/28/were-not-in-a-cult-are-we/comment-page-1/#comment-835</link>
		<dc:creator>buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slavenation.com/?p=5131#comment-835</guid>
		<description>With regard to #2, a long time ago on the @fit forum, someone asked about Coach&#039;s injury, (knee?), and that person was shouted down for trying to cause trouble.  IIRC, that person was subsequently banned for violating various and sundry rules. 

I think the @fit founder had a background in gymnastics, and the injury might have happened from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to #2, a long time ago on the @fit forum, someone asked about Coach&#8217;s injury, (knee?), and that person was shouted down for trying to cause trouble.  IIRC, that person was subsequently banned for violating various and sundry rules. </p>
<p>I think the @fit founder had a background in gymnastics, and the injury might have happened from that.</p>
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